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"Being legal doesn't make it right."
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Author Topic: Drugs  (Read 23277 times)
Witcher
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« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2008, 01:42:46 AM »

Smoking is Strongly correlated to lung cancer.

There is the rub. There is a correlation - not proof of action. Correlation does not constitute proof in and of itself as it does not demonstrate a casuality link.

For lay people this is what it means in a few questions and answers:


Does nicotine cause cancer?

Maybe. We are not sure. All evidence points to the fact that it does cause cancer but evidence is not conclusive. (Note - it is *extremely* difficult to prove something actually causes cancer. This has only been proven with a mechanism for action and the whole shebang for very few substances, last time I checked 6 maybe now 10-20)

Does smoking cause cancer?

Yes. Unless you die of something else first or you have the perfect genes of the uberman or the luck of a leprechaun smoking will eventually cause cancer. We don't know exactly why (maybe its the nicotine, or the tar, or the heat from the cigarette smoke - we just don't know exactly why) but we are pretty sure it will happen. Eventually. (My apologies to Moen on this I hate to rub this sort of thing in)

There hope that helps.

One last thing because It's starting to irk:

Quote
@the chewing tobacco,
the nicotine travels with your spit down to your stomache, almost everything of it is destroyed by  the acid inside your stomache, so not mmuch harm caused..

And how is that different from swallowing a solution of nicotine? It still has to get through the stomach I believe.

Right now who else enjoys endorphins???

 mf_laughbounce2

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coffee1
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« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2008, 06:34:30 AM »

Quote
@the chewing tobacco,
the nicotine travels with your spit down to your stomache, almost everything of it is destroyed by  the acid inside your stomache, so not mmuch harm caused..

And how is that different from swallowing a solution of nicotine? It still has to get through the stomach I believe.
[/quote]

it isn't different with the swallowing a solution of nicotine, but different with smoking cigs.
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Magna Carta
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« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2008, 06:57:26 AM »

Smoking is Strongly correlated to lung cancer.

Chewing tobacco has been correlated to various forms of oral cancer.

There is (possibly questionable) evidence that Cigarettes are highly addictive: something like a 90% chance of being addicted after one (I doubt this, but I have seen that number used).

That said, several Native American tribes smoked tobacco (not Cigarettes, but Tobacco leaves) for hundreds of years. If there was anything that hurt their survival, it should have killed them off. However, they didn't die off, so it appears that there is nothing in Tobacco that is harmful. Perhaps the lesson here is that the processing that turns Tobacco into Cigarettes is harmful to human health.

About the addictiveness of cigarettes (nicotine is the more probable cause of this addictiveness), recent studies I have seen suggest that it is genetic in nature. Some people have 'genetically' wired brains that feel a positive experience when exposed to nicotine, while others do not. The first group are those who get addicted very rapidly, though I wouldn't go so far as saying with the first cigarette. The second group is much less likely to, but may still, be addicted, but after prolonged exposure (and feeling sick all the while).

As for the last point, you're jumping to a conclusion not warranted by the facts. Most cancers in smokers occur later in life, after one has produced offspring, and thus is no obstacle to the perpetuation of the species. I should add that, since they had a less than ideal access to proper medical care, cancer was probably not that important a cause of death, considering disease, starvation, accidents and wars.

If anything, the filters that are used on 'modern' cigarettes makes them much safer (eliminating a good part of the various carcinogenic and otherwise dangerous substances produced by the burning of tobacco), and the more stable (and higher) burning temperature of modern tobacco also reduces the amount of these unwanted substances. Although, that doesn't make them safe, not by a long shot.
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Moen Co.
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« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2008, 08:12:04 AM »

@Adralamech: The primary way nicotine enters your system with chewing tobacco is actually through absorption in your gums. The same reason why nicotine gums have you hold it in between your cheek and gums after you chew it the first couple times (my dad tried to use them to quit). The solution of nicotine was hypothetical, I don't think anyone actually does that on a regular basis. Also with the issue of dilution, concentration is somewhat a factor, especially when it is combined with an amount of food since nicotine is easily eliminated from the bloodstream.

@Magna: The filters do filter out some of the harmful chemicals, but cigarettes contain quite a few additives in them. The majority of carcinogenic substances are produced by burning these additives. Tar, which is a main factor in decreased lung function, is produced when tobacco is burned. So, the higher the temperature, the higher amount of tar you receive, which is why I prefer to use a hookah when with friends.
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Andreas
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« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2008, 08:58:37 AM »

Also with the issue of dilution, concentration is somewhat a factor, especially when it is combined with an amount of food since nicotine is easily eliminated from the bloodstream.

It was that I tried to say on the previous page but thanks for clearifying. My grammar isnt allways the best since Im not from an englishspeaking country.
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But more importantly: They aren't here!
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Magna Carta
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« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2008, 09:38:41 AM »

@Magna: The filters do filter out some of the harmful chemicals, but cigarettes contain quite a few additives in them. The majority of carcinogenic substances are produced by burning these additives. Tar, which is a main factor in decreased lung function, is produced when tobacco is burned. So, the higher the temperature, the higher amount of tar you receive, which is why I prefer to use a hookah when with friends.

Most carcinogenic substances, as well as CO, are produced by the incomplete combustion of tar and the additives contained in cigarettes. Granted, heating, rather than burning, tobacco, in order to deliver only nicotine and a few other substances would be 'safer', except that smokers find those kind of cigarettes unsatisfying.

As for the hookah, I have serious doubts as to its effectiveness. Again, a lower temperature means more 'unwanted' substances, because the combustion is incomplete, and the water is not an effective barrier to substances that are not, or weakly so, water-soluble, among them aromatic hydrocarbons, which are known carcinogens. Add to it the fact that most users inhale more deeply and may both inhale more smoke and hold it in their lungs longer, and you've got something that is potentially worse.

For that last point, I can send you links to the abstracts of two research studies on the use of hookah in smoking tobacco. I could find more if you wish.
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Witcher
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« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2008, 11:51:16 AM »

As for the hookah, I have serious doubts as to its effectiveness. Again, a lower temperature means more 'unwanted' substances, because the combustion is incomplete, and the water is not an effective barrier to substances that are not, or weakly so, water-soluble, among them aromatic hydrocarbons, which are known carcinogens. Add to it the fact that most users inhale more deeply and may both inhale more smoke and hold it in their lungs longer, and you've got something that is potentially worse.

 21

Hold on you have your argument backwards.

If something is NOT water soluble - that means it will NOT pass a water barrier. It cannot dissolve into the water therefore it will not go into the mixture which you inhale from the hookah which as far as I recall must go through water to get to your lungs.
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coffee1
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« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2008, 02:48:38 PM »

Most carcinogenic substances, as well as CO, are produced by the incomplete combustion of tar and the additives contained in cigarettes. Granted, heating, rather than burning, tobacco, in order to deliver only nicotine and a few other substances would be 'safer', except that smokers find those kind of cigarettes unsatisfying.

As for the hookah, I have serious doubts as to its effectiveness. Again, a lower temperature means more 'unwanted' substances, because the combustion is incomplete, and the water is not an effective barrier to substances that are not, or weakly so, water-soluble, among them aromatic hydrocarbons, which are known carcinogens. Add to it the fact that most users inhale more deeply and may both inhale more smoke and hold it in their lungs longer, and you've got something that is potentially worse.

For that last point, I can send you links to the abstracts of two research studies on the use of hookah in smoking tobacco. I could find more if you wish.

You're contradicting yourself here. First you say heating tobacco would produce less substance delivery, then you turn around and say lower temperatures using a hookah would produce more? Which is it?

Using a hookah bakes the tobacco, which is usually covered in molasses so that it is less prone to burning than dry tobacco. A correctly used hookah does not burn the tobacco. And as I said, tar is produced when tobacco is burnt, not heated to the usual temperature of 100-150C.

So the water doesn't trap any particles that aren't water soluble, what about the ones that are? Also the water, especially when chilled, cools the smoke down to a less harmful temperature. There's also the point that while a hookah does use a lot more tobacco per 'serving', and the method of inhalation may change, it's not as frequently used as cigarettes, and when it is used it is more likely in a social setting, which is the main reason I prefer it over cigarettes. Smoking hookah with my friends is my hobby, not my habit.

I'm not against the idea that smoking/drinking/whatever is bad for your health, but I believe in simple moderation, and if someone can't deal with that, then they shouldn't be allowed to indulge in a little vice.

@Witcher - If something is water soluable, then that means the substance does dissolve in water. Since aromatic hydrocarbons aren't water soluable, passing it through water does nothing to remove any of the hydrocarbons from the smoke before it reaches your lungs.

Also, does anyone have anything to contribute to the original topic? This was originally about sharing any drug experiences.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 02:53:00 PM by Moen Co. » Logged

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Magna Carta
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« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2008, 06:10:20 PM »

You're contradicting yourself here. First you say heating tobacco would produce less substance delivery, then you turn around and say lower temperatures using a hookah would produce more? Which is it?

I have little to say about the rest of the post, so I left it out.

'Heating' the tobacco as opposed to 'burning' it. I don't see any contradiction here. Try heating bread, then try burning (toasting) it. Burning requires a higher temperature than simply heating it (tastes better too, but that's beside the point 16).

I have to add one last thing, which is a common misconception. Tar is usually written as "tar" on the side of cigarette packs for a reason, i.e. it is not the same as tar used in road construction (or other miscellaneous but not unwholesome activities). Some say it stands for total aerosol residue, but I doubt it; still, it describes it pretty well. Most of the "tar" in cigarettes doesn't actually come from the burning (though the last draw on the cigarette may contain as much pre-smoking as post-smoking tar at that point), but from the tobacco curing process.

I have no idea what the original post was about though.  laugh
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Moen Co.
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« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2008, 09:11:31 PM »

Quote
Granted, heating, rather than burning, tobacco, in order to deliver only nicotine and a few other substances would be 'safer', except that smokers find those kind of cigarettes unsatisfying.
Summary: Heating tobacco is less harmful than simply burning it.

Quote
As for the hookah, I have serious doubts as to its effectiveness. Again, a lower temperature means more 'unwanted' substances, because the combustion is incomplete, etc...
Summary: Hookah smoking is harmful because of low temperature combustion.
Problem: Hookahs slowly bake the tobacco, a.k.a. 'heating'. Only after an extended amount of time (~45 minutes) does it actually start to burn, and then it tastes and feels like smoking a cigarette.

L2read? Anyone?
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Magna Carta
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« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2008, 10:08:19 PM »

Quote
As for the hookah, I have serious doubts as to its effectiveness. Again, a lower temperature means more 'unwanted' substances, because the combustion is incomplete, etc...
Summary: Hookah smoking is harmful because of low temperature combustion.
Problem: Hookahs slowly bake the tobacco, a.k.a. 'heating'. Only after an extended amount of time (~45 minutes) does it actually start to burn, and then it tastes and feels like smoking a cigarette.

L2read? Anyone?

Problem: the only people I have seen use a hookah have usually been burning the tobacco (and a couple of other things as well, mind you).

But, I checked, and you make a valid point. As long as the temperature is kept low enough, little to no combustion takes place, making this a probably safer alternative to cigarette. I'll stick with my easier-to-carry tobacco-wrapped-in-paper nicotine delivery system though.
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Moen Co.
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« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2008, 10:25:16 PM »

Ah I see, they probably weren't doing it right. Usually when I use a hookah I wrap the bowl with foil then place a instant-light charcoal on top. It's usually fine for the first half hour or so then it starts to burn and it's really noticeable when it starts. The foil helps reduce the amount of heat that reaches the sheesha (tobacco) via insulation as well as elevating the coal a half inch or so if the foil is taut.

As for the 'other things' in a hookah, nice, but not an everyday thing. It just doesn't taste right. I demand that my hookah smoke taste like fruit d**nit!

Oh definitely cigarettes are the easier to transport item. I've been smoking them more often now that I've moved far from any of my friends. They're nice as a quick stim for when I'm tired (which is usually often), but I still can't get over the taste, even if I smoke menthol 100's and stop 3/4 of the way through. After I'm done I want to drink something strong and acidic to try and mask the flavor (soda). Maybe I'm just trying the wrong ones, any suggestions? I currently buy Marlboro Smooths 100's, just so I can avoid that last bit of extra tarry/nasty cigarette.
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The_Architect
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« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2008, 10:38:12 AM »

you make your own cigarettes? What are you smoking?

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Magna Carta
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« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2008, 11:10:11 AM »

Oh definitely cigarettes are the easier to transport item. I've been smoking them more often now that I've moved far from any of my friends. They're nice as a quick stim for when I'm tired (which is usually often), but I still can't get over the taste, even if I smoke menthol 100's and stop 3/4 of the way through. After I'm done I want to drink something strong and acidic to try and mask the flavor (soda). Maybe I'm just trying the wrong ones, any suggestions? I currently buy Marlboro Smooths 100's, just so I can avoid that last bit of extra tarry/nasty cigarette.

Sorry for the late reply, didn't notice the post.

Menthol cigarettes are the worst. In my opinion, you're better off smoking a regular cigarette than chewing mint gum.

As for suggestions, since I'm Canadian, I usually smoke canadian cigarettes, which have a distinct taste from the american ones (though I enjoy a new flavour now and then). Hence, making suggestions would be difficult.
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The_Architect
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« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2008, 11:19:32 AM »

you should go to china for your cigarettes, they go as low as $7(RMB, 7:1 compared to the dollar) in china, so that equates to around $1 american, and they have a better, smoother taste

go for the hard-packs, the softpacks can be 4 times more expensive

I don't smoke, but quite a number of my (right-wing) cousins like them better than the crap we have here (I think they make them just for the sake of smoking with no regard to satisfaction).
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