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Author Topic: Hostile Defenses  (Read 4800 times)
ZacQuicksilver
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« on: July 25, 2008, 11:19:57 AM »

Taking the core idea from my "Counterstrike Defenses":


I would like a third type of defense that did nasty things to people who tried to Crack you server. Some ideas for what it might do include:

Upload a program onto the cracking server
Load a process that eats up bandwidth/CPU speed/Memory
Delete files
Start cracking the cracking server

Whatever happens, the idea is that it becomes risky, but not dangerous, to randomly crack servers. They need to be weak enough that a Newbie can take one and go on, but strong enough that the more experienced players might pause before hitting the "Start Crack" button.
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I hack games, not computers, in my life.

I'm NOT SGP, no matter how much I support them on the forums.


Pardus.at. Let me know if you play.
HJ®
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2008, 04:15:35 PM »

Okay, now before you make a third topic about this, let me explain why these ideas won't be implemented.

1. Upload a program onto the cracking server
 - You can do this yourself already
 - What if the remote HDD is full?
 - What if you don't have the strength to crack their server?
 - Who's going to crack ANYONE with such risk of having malicious damages done to their PC?
 - Automatic actions should be limited if not removed completely.

2. Load a process that eats up bandwidth/CPU speed/Memory
 - You can do this yourself already in so many different ways, we don't need another one
 - What if the remote BW is full?
 - What if the remote CPU is full?
 - What if the remote RAM is full?
 - What if you don't have the strength to crack their server?
 - Who's going to crack ANYONE with such risk of having malicious damages done to their PC?
 - Automatic actions should be limited if not removed completely.

3. Delete files
 - YOU CAN DO THIS YOURSELF ALREADY
 - What if there are no files to delete?
 - What if YOUR CPU is full?
 - Who's going to crack ANYONE with such risk of having malicious damages done to their PC?
 - What if you don't have the strength to crack their server?
 - Automatic actions should be limited if not removed completely.

4. Start cracking the cracking server
 - ...YOU CAN DO THIS YOURSELF ALREADY
 - What if you already have admin access?
 - What if you don't have the strength to crack their server?
 - Automatic actions should be limited if not removed completely.


It seems like you're just trying to get quick fixes for players who are online less, as well as automating a game that should NOT be. This is why you have to click Task Complete when a process finishes.

People need to stop whining about how the older players are making large gaps in the ranks, and how you'll "never catch up". That's what I thought too. DEDICATION to the game is what got me where I am. DEDICATION to the game is what got this game where it is. There is no quick fix. Why should the game constantly be getting easier for new players just because the older players are getting better?

If you can answer all of these questions knowledgeably and in such a way where I agree with every single "defense" idea that you've come up with, then I'll support your idea. Until then, there is a resounding "NO" from me. Good luck.
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ZacQuicksilver
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2008, 04:50:35 PM »

Okay, now before you make a third topic about this, let me explain why these ideas won't be implemented.

...

People need to stop whining about how the older players are making large gaps in the ranks, and how you'll "never catch up". That's what I thought too. DEDICATION to the game is what got me where I am. DEDICATION to the game is what got this game where it is. There is no quick fix. Why should the game constantly be getting easier for new players just because the older players are getting better?

If you can answer all of these questions knowledgeably and in such a way where I agree with every single "defense" idea that you've come up with, then I'll support your idea. Until then, there is a resounding "NO" from me. Good luck.

I don't care if I never catch up. While I want to get ahead, I'm also happy where I am.

I know that "DEDICATION" is what will get me ahead, if I wanted to.

And the game doesn't need to get easier for new players.


What I do want is to offer some new things to this game.


Now, to business:

1. Upload a program onto the cracking server
 - You can do this yourself already
 - What if the remote HDD is full?
 - What if you don't have the strength to crack their server?
 - Who's going to crack ANYONE with such risk of having malicious damages done to their PC?
 - Automatic actions should be limited if not removed completely.

Yes I can do this myself, IF I have access.
If the remote HDD is full, you can't finish the download
I'll discuss access at the end of this, since it's a concern for all of these.
Ditto with the "risking damage" question and automation aspect.


2. Load a process that eats up bandwidth/CPU speed/Memory
 - You can do this yourself already in so many different ways, we don't need another one
 - What if the remote BW is full?
 - What if the remote CPU is full?
 - What if the remote RAM is full?
 - What if you don't have the strength to crack their server?
 - Who's going to crack ANYONE with such risk of having malicious damages done to their PC?
 - Automatic actions should be limited if not removed completely.

-Yes, but can you do it just before someone overloads a program to hack you. That would be the intent of this.
-If anything is full, it takes partial effect, to fill up whichever one happens first.
Last three answered at the end.


3. Delete files
 - YOU CAN DO THIS YOURSELF ALREADY
 - What if there are no files to delete?
 - What if YOUR CPU is full?
 - Who's going to crack ANYONE with such risk of having malicious damages done to their PC?
 - What if you don't have the strength to crack their server?
 - Automatic actions should be limited if not removed completely.

-Again, the timing of things may serve you.
-If every program is running, then it fails
-There are two options if your CPU is full. 1) It fails. 2)It kills itself, then begins file deletion. Both.


4. Start cracking the cracking server
 - ...YOU CAN DO THIS YOURSELF ALREADY
 - What if you already have admin access?
 - What if you don't have the strength to crack their server?
 - Automatic actions should be limited if not removed completely.

-I know, I know. This was the weakest of the ideas. The secondary point of this is to know who hacked you.
-If you have Admin Access, there's no need to crack it, so it doesn't work.



Now, for those last three questions:


- What if you don't have the strength to crack their server?

Given they are also accessing your server, I would suggest (as an idea) that just their firewall serves as defense (unless you are cracking them). However, if this program is still to weak to get through, you just get a "Failure" message of some sort: whatever you were trying to sneak into their server got blocked, and failed.

- Who's going to crack ANYONE with such risk of having malicious damages done to their PC?
I don't want it to be major damage:
The loss of a program is not particularly problematic for anyone. Sure it might cause problems if you've just researched something, or can't remember where you got it, but I have a couple backups even though I'm not premium
Receiving a program could actually be useful: even if the program is hidden and encrypted, if you can keep them from installing it long enough, you now have that program.
Bandwidth/CPU/Memory eaters could be debugged, just like any other malicious process.
Getting your server cracked happens all the time.

- Automatic actions should be limited if not removed completely

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Limited, perhaps. Removed, no.

I am of the opinion that someone who is devoted to a game, and willing to work out how a game works should have more rewards than someone who just plays for fun, but has lots of time on their hands. I know this opinion runs counter to a lot of people, but it's my opinion. If Siremi wants to comment on this, I would be happy to adjust what I post to his opinions.



And thank you for the critique from an experienced player. This is what I am looking for.
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I hack games, not computers, in my life.

I'm NOT SGP, no matter how much I support them on the forums.


Pardus.at. Let me know if you play.
HJ®
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2008, 05:43:25 PM »

Quote
I don't care if I never catch up. While I want to get ahead, I'm also happy where I am.

I know that "DEDICATION" is what will get me ahead, if I wanted to.

And the game doesn't need to get easier for new players.


What I do want is to offer some new things to this game.

This was more aimed at the new updates that are already being implemented, along with the overpowered ones that are already there.  Nobody should ever be even considering cracking someone 10x their power. Succeeding is a whole new hell. I like putting suggestions out there too, but when they help the newer players considerably, that shouldn't be "okay" just because they aren't as strong. The point is, we've put dedication and time into getting where we are, and any average joe can come in and crack any server in a matter of days. This is not right, it's not balanced, and it's downright ridiculous, all because Emi wants more people to play the game. I guess he doesnt see that the game was growing just as well if not faster before.


Quote
1. Upload a program onto the cracking server

Yes I can do this myself, IF I have access.
If the remote HDD is full, you can't finish the download
I'll discuss access at the end of this, since it's a concern for all of these.
Ditto with the "risking damage" question and automation aspect.

- You shouldn't be able to do anything to anyone's HDD if you don't have access, that's obsurd.
- Many players only upgrade their HDD to accomodate for new software. over 50% of private servers I've seen are full in HDD space.
- You can still do this yourself. Just get access. You're looking for ways to damage players that you can't get access to. It's not a third defense, it's a cheap offense. I'll say again, it would NOT be fair to do anything to anyone's PC without access.

Quote
2. Load a process that eats up bandwidth/CPU speed/Memory

-Yes, but can you do it just before someone overloads a program to hack you. That would be the intent of this.
-If anything is full, it takes partial effect, to fill up whichever one happens first.

- And you can still do this all yourself. There should be no "easy" button.

#3: - And you can still do this all yourself. There should be no "easy" button.
#4: - And you can still do this all yourself. There should be no "easy" button.


Last Three Questions:

- What's the point in researching a password protect if it doesn't work some of the time? What's the point in it being there at all?

- The loss of a program is not particularly a problem for experienced players, yes. What about newer players?
- Who's going to want to give their programs away? Trying to get some decent players Programs just because they hacked you? LOL
- Bandwidth/CPU/Memory eaters could be debugged, just like any other malicious process. Therefore, they are useless.
- I'd love to see you crack my server. The only way you could is with overloading, which is a p.o.s feature anyways.


Prove to me why a player while offline should be able to:

- Crack a server
- Upload files to a server
- Load processes on a server
- Delete files.

What's the point in playing? I could just sit back and research + collect virii while damaging other players at the same time.
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ZacQuicksilver
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2008, 07:25:07 PM »

I think you've almost made your point.

I still think there should be something that I can do other than wait for someone to actually beat my FW/PP. I want there to be a cost of some sort for hacking a server noticeably more powerful than you.


However, I agree that the things I suggested are not going to work.


Perhaps a scan, or an IP trace, or some such thing. Something that means it isn't worth it to go poking at any player's IP you get, hoping you can get through their defenses. Perhaps an Surface Sniffer Demon, that detects the IP of people who crack the server, the same way a Sniffer Demon detects the IP of people who get Admin access; or a Surface IP Scan, which returns the FW Break and Password Break of the Cracking Server.
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I hack games, not computers, in my life.

I'm NOT SGP, no matter how much I support them on the forums.


Pardus.at. Let me know if you play.
Moen Co.
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2008, 08:15:21 PM »

Perhaps a scan, or an IP trace, or some such thing. Something that means it isn't worth it to go poking at any player's IP you get, hoping you can get through their defenses. Perhaps an Surface Sniffer Demon, that detects the IP of people who crack the server, the same way a Sniffer Demon detects the IP of people who get Admin access; or a Surface IP Scan, which returns the FW Break and Password Break of the Cracking Server.

Both of those are already implemented in-game.  Your Surface Sniffer Daemon is either a.) Installing a Sniffer Daemon on yourself or b.) Manually tracking through your logs to find the origin IP.  Everytime you crack a server, you chance looking at their files and seeing that their Log UnDeleter is a higher version than your Deleter, in which case there's a good chance you'll be tracked down and get some payback.

As for the Surface IP Scan, why would you like to know the versions of their Bypass and Break?  I see no immediate advantage to knowing that information at the time of the crack.  If you want to know it, go find them and crack them.

Another problem is that half the actions you would have these automated processes do take AP to do with the current system.  Sure if you have no AP, the quick fix would to just have the countermeasure not go off, but what if you do have AP?  You spend that AP just because someone decided to attempt to crack your server, which is free.  So having one of these programs active would be a AP burner for YOU.  There's no limit on how many times you can click 'crack admin', and if multiple people do it at the same time it gets even worse.

After watching you post about all of this, I get the impression that you don't like PvP very much. All these suggestions would make PvP pretty nonexistant.  I think it would even discourage competition over completing missions.  These missions seem designed to be run with your FW/PP while you're offline.  I don't know about everyone else, but I like to have as much of my server's resources available while I'm disinfecting/cracking/doing missions, so I'm going to have those disabled while I'm running missions.
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ZacQuicksilver
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2008, 11:51:05 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a sniffer demon only detects me if I leave a log. The Surface Sniffer would only detect if someone Cracks the server: if they already have access, I don't learn anything.

And I haven't thought about this and AP. More thinking to do.



As for PvP, I haven't engaged in it enough to have a feel for it: I've been hacked once, and hacked several active players, for a total of maybe 6 interactions. The PvP I have engaged in is Virus Capture, which I enjoy despite it's temporal nature. Where these ideas come from is my own experience playing Netrunner, a hacking-themed CCG, as well as my own attempts to design a Hacking element to a game still very much under construction.
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I hack games, not computers, in my life.

I'm NOT SGP, no matter how much I support them on the forums.


Pardus.at. Let me know if you play.
HJ®
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2008, 12:06:53 AM »

Okay, to your credit, these aren't bad ideas, they're just not for what HP is in my opinion.
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Raistlin
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2008, 12:30:37 AM »

I agree. Things shouldn't happen while you're away. At least, not things to your advantage. I mean, in the real world, if you were really hacking, the only way to keep your box safe would be to be there ALL the time. Same here, I think. That way, you can do things without repercussions, provided the owner of the computer you hacked is offline.
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ZacQuicksilver
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2008, 12:15:42 PM »

Raistlin: I have heard people say that they have programs that send malicious programs to people that their software catches forcing access.


That said, I am convinced. I am leaving this open if anyone wants to post an argument for this, but since I am accepting it is not right for HP, no further arguments need be made against it, for the time being.
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I hack games, not computers, in my life.

I'm NOT SGP, no matter how much I support them on the forums.


Pardus.at. Let me know if you play.
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